Stephen Mark Sarro of Tantrum of the Muse

I recently had a conversation with Stephen Mark Sarro, most known for his as vocalist/guitarist/songwriter in Tantrum of the Muse. We spoke about Stephen's recently-released solo album, frustrations with American Christianity and questions of God, evil and theology. I hope you enjoy this candid conversation as much as I did.


FULL SWEEP DISTRO: Hey man, I listened to that track the other day.

Stephen Mark Sarro: Sweet, thanks. What did you think?

FSD: The music was cool. I like experimental stuff.

Stephen: Well, the song you heard, it’s the only one that sounds that way. The whole CD is completely off the rocker.

FSD: Cool. Yeah, from what I've read from you and stuff, the track was fairly 'tame.’

Stephen: Yeah it is. It’s the most musical. The CD is--if you wanna compare it to a TOTM song--its more like the music of "Screw the Christian Industry,” “Headcheese Recipe,” “My Depression Outfit,” etc.

FSD: Is it a rock record though? The impression I had gotten was that it wasn't really rock at all. Is this inaccurate?

Stephen: It’s the farthest thing from rock. It’s like noise music, meets Floyd or Enya.

FSD: OK, cool.

Stephen: I got pleeeeeeeeeenty of rock coming though with the new TOTM album, that hopefully we will do.

FSD: Sweet! Keep me posted.

Stephen: I shall. . . tekipyro.com is the label.

FSD: Is this people that you know?

Stephen: Oh yeah, definitely. It’s Jim, TOTM bassist.

FSD: So is the solo album actually finished and all?

Stephen: Yeah, it has been recorded for over 2 years. Quintana, and The Hearken [ed. note: both of these were labels that were originally slated to release the record] both went down because both labels are big dreams, skinny wallets.

FSD: That's one reason I've never really been interested in doing a label. You basically pay for everyone's recording, etc. and then hope you get some return on it.

Stephen: It’s a tough deal. The big problem is bands expect too much too quick. With both of the labels the solo thing was coming out on, I gave them the record. My only obligation was that it existed and it did so in the context of how I recorded it and laid it out. I told both labels, ‘keep all of the royalties, you’re taking a risk.’

FSD: Dang. That's a rare treat for a label.

Stephen: Well, nothing happened so, oh well. LOL.

FSD: How does your faith come out on this solo album? Is it a similar approach as the TOTM stuff or different? (This is starting to sound like an interview, hehe.)

Stephen: It comes out in rare situations. It’s 100% where I was when recording it, which wasn’t a good place. But it’s also 100% honest--I wouldn’t lie to anyone or myself. My faith has gotten much more strong since I abandoned a lot of the useless stuff with believing in God (i.e. Christianity as a religious ceremony, getting some answers to some confusing questions etc.) On the solo CD though, the album is quite spacious and depressing, or I was at least . . . and it came out on the record.

FSD: I understand . . . I think. Thanks for being open/honest with me.

Stephen: Of course, to that defense, I have to also say that in every case where I have been told that my words and approach to things in music have been a light in the dark, in the examples they shared, they were always the lyrics where I was most lost, angry, and at the "bottom" so to speak. So, it’s definitely got its place.

FSD: Interesting. Sometimes people feel like they are the only ones who are going through a negative situation--in part because people are afraid to talk about their own negative experiences. What were some of the negative things that you abandoned?

Stephen: Things I abandoned . . . well, I mean . . . I just got sick and tired of explaining to an unbeliever, "I’m not religious, Christianity is different." I don’t believe it is. I believe religion, as a whole 100% is a conspiracy devised quite perfectly from the enemy. If you think about what religion is, and why there is one to comfort anyone, it’s bogus. It takes away one certain point, and that is that there is only one way. And if you think about it this way--that we cannot, according to Scripture, argue and attempt to change one from their belief, but to instead love, we are not allowed to actually publicly present this case. It’s a perfect plan of the enemy--give people enough good intentions and enough niceness, be good, be kind to one another, you don’t "have" to believe what just the Bible says.

FSD: Sounds like a sort of revelation.

Stephen: And if this is the case, and if us dying is truly being alive, and if we will be either with God fully, or without him, fully, (AKA heaven, hell), then there has got to be more to it than what we were passed down from ma and pa. And I believe that more than I believe anything! [I believe] that a revolution in the "church" is going to take place, and people are called, and I believe I am one of them.

FSD: Very interesting. It sounds like you've gained (or re-gained?) a passion for . . . perhaps for Christ Himself and not just the clothes that go along with it.

Stephen: I believe there are people out there, who have experienced God, the one we serve, and have no idea what to call it. Maybe some freak on an island somewhere, he might as well call it "the mighty star" or something. Over in America, that would just be religion. But it has to be possible, that without calling himself a Christian, he can still be saved. He can still have a life-changing experience with God, and just not have a freaking title and he might understand. I believe God would reveal Himself, if it was the only way that this person would come to know Him. And so, without argument, he would know healing and love. And if this person comes to America, are we going to accept him as saved? No, very few would. And it’s bogus to me.

FSD: Well, I agree that God reveals Himself in many different ways--often without the help of other believers.

Stephen: AMEN!

FSD: And a person is judged based on what degree they've responded to what they have received from God.

Stephen: Yeah.

FSD: Which is why Paul can say that all are accountable to God, regardless of what they have actually heard about the Gospel.

Stephen: Where is that in the Bible?

FSD: Romans.

Stephen: And check this out . . . where did evil originate?

FSD: Here's what I believe: evil does not have a primary existence.

Stephen: Explain, please!

FSD: It exists only as a negation of the good.

Stephen: Oh man, please explain that to me. I need this answer.

FSD: So evil is not choosing God, or choosing against God. Anytime we choose not to follow God in any given circumstance, it's evil/sin. So when Satan chose to rebel against God, it was the birth of evil. I don't believe evil has its origins anywhere in God . . . as some believe.

Stephen: Yes, but that’s the problem I am having.

FSD: How so? I used to wrestle with this question too.

Stephen: We just say Satan chose to rebel, but that had to be an evil thought in itself. It was evil. Regardless of what evil is explained as, how did it get into his head?

FSD: I know what you mean, it's difficult to understand. I don't know if it's something the human mind can fully comprehend.

Stephen: Exactly. But at the same time, it changes everything.

FSD: But here's what helps me: I believe God creates us with a free will. A philosophical question: is love possible if there is no other possible choice? In other words, is love really love if there is no possibility for evil? This is the essence of free will. We are given the possibility of relationship with God, because God is love. With that comes also the possibility to choose not to follow God. Why would someone do that? I have no idea, but they do. Why do I do some of the stupid things I do from day to day? Why do I sin in my personal life from time to time? It makes no sense, but it is a finite human choice.

Stephen: My answer to that is . . . we are created by God . . . who is love. And no matter what we follow, even the evil of saying we love to kill people . . . what makes us love it is a part of what God installed to us. We cannot be fully 100% loveless [and yet] created in His image, so to speak.

FSD: I agree. We are created in God's image and after His likeness, but that image is tainted by sin. But think about this: Adam and Eve were deceived. satan chose completely in and of himself. Perhaps that's why his punishment is so much more severe.

Stephen: Good point.

FSD: We never have any indication that he will have the opportunity for salvation, but humanity is able to receive salvation.

Stephen: But aren’t you sick of not understanding at least why there is evil, and why a God would really send us to hell if He is love?

FSD: I also think hell exists because of love. Hell is simply the 'backside' of His love, if you will. Here you have the God of the universe revealed in Jesus Christ, in history, in creation, the Scriptures, etc. offering salvation and you reject that for whatever reason. Hell is the wrath of His love. God is like a jealous lover who is simultaneously passionately in love with His lover and enraged by the betrayal. He is ready to forgive at the drop of a hat and yet deeply hurt by the betrayal. You see a lot of the jealous lover type imagery in the OT prophets, especially Isaiah and Jeremiah.

Stephen: True, but . . . again we can’t explain why He would punish us for not loving Him. I can understand why we need faith, and why God isn’t physically a man on earth--it would be simple. It would throw out all reliance on God. But if someone was given proof of God, it’s a fair assumption they wouldn’t deny God. So it’s fair to say that people might not believe because they cannot grasp the idea of it. And if so, it’s sad to think that the punishment of 100% lack of love is just.

FSD: Yes, but there were people who did see Jesus with their eyes and touch Him with their hands who still rejected Him--especially the religious people.

Stephen: Again, given that that person wouldn’t deny it if he believed. It’s weird to think God would throw people away, just because we don’t believe. As harsh as that sounds, it sounds humanistic. Because--and this is the main point--if love is unconditional, why does God expect anything in return?

FSD: Good question.

Stephen: Should we not love always, and expect nothing in return?

FSD: I think His love is unconditional, but to have a relationship (which is the essence of salvation), then love must at some level, however imperfect, be reciprocated.

Stephen: I believe that, for some odd reason, there are those minority people, who believe God is God, but still choose death. I don’t even understand that level of pride.

FSD: I totally agree. I know this is cliche, but I agree with the statement that God doesn't so much send people to hell, as they send themselves there. He has actually taken great steps to keep people from going there.

Stephen: Yeah, that is the same conclusion I give too . . . that "God is giving us a 2nd choice, but we choose not to go there." And I do have a small level of peace in that. But there is still that part of me that says "but we aren’t necessarily believing we are going there, so we don’t understand that we are going there . . . why is it there? Why do we have to fall into such depth of destruction just for dying confused?" And you can see how religion plays its part in this as a negative factor.

FSD: Sure . But the truth is, you and I are completely convinced that Jesus really is who He said He is. Right? Why are we convinced of this? Is it simply because someone told us? Or because we had some experience to lead us to believe that? Aren't others faced with that same possibility if they are open to it? Don't get me wrong--I'm not saying I never have doubts or that there aren't aspects of the Bible or Christianity I don't understand Anselm said "I don't understand in order that I might believe. I believe in order that I might understand."

Stephen: All you just said--I’m with you! And Loyd, if I may point out the beginning of this conversation, you asked me what negative have I thrown out. My whole point is--I have been asking these questions. And while there is a lot of confusion now, and I feel like everything I believed isn’t what I thought it was, I have realized however that there are a lot of stupid things I have been believing that I didn’t have to--things that are just humanistic ceremonial nonsense. I cant be the same "Christian" (if I may borrow that title for a second) if I dig into these thoughts more.

FSD: What do you mean?

Stephen: What I meant a few posts back was--I was your typical church-going, get-saved-or-burn-in-hell-Christian. And right now I am someone who would rather focus on love, and try to understand as much of what I know I won’t understand. Meaning, I won’t get it all, but I can get as much as I can grasp. And I believe God is one, He created every single thing, and there is God in everything--even evil things, because of the love of being that way. And I just wanna focus on loving people--people who I always thought (unintentionally) were different or lower--gays, for example. I’m trying to truly connect my mind to the reality that if sin is sin, I am no different. I should be loving people more because I have been given mercy.

FSD: I agree with all that you just said, but I would modify one thing . . . You said "God is in everything . . . even evil things." I believe God is present everywhere, even in hell as David pointed out, but I wouldn't say that "God is in evil things" necessarily. Just a slight difference of emphasis. But yeah, I think Christian homophobia for instance is very wrong. Love is the law . . . according to Jesus.

Stephen: Sure. And to answer your question, the sole reason I still believe is from the little of the Bible I understand, the personal affect God has had on me, and just how the world operates--God has to be God. But a mass of principle isn’t connecting with the God: who God says He is, and the God everyone else says He is.

FSD: We definitely believe for a number of different reasons, sometimes complicated ones.

Stephen: I was emphasizing that in people’s evil hearts, there is still a part of God. As much as in a dinky tree in the ground, there is a part of God.

FSD: Sure.

Stephen: And see, another thing that changes this all for me--from the Christian I was, and the believer I am now--I can’t go out there and say "get saved everyone, get saved." I believe just my love, and my tidbits of knowledge of God, shared with others, and the things you and I talked about shared with others is what plants the seed. I trust that God knows what He is doing from there. Who are we to think that we must save these people? I think it’s almost more important to talk to the person about them, not about you, because no wall is built around them.

FSD: Yeah. Emphasizing the relationship.

Stephen: And again, think about . . . in a position of ministry that I am in--how this changes a lot. How it strengthens it . . . but changes it.

FSD: How so?

Stephen: Well again, TOTM was a Christian band, and we can’t be that now. We cannot hinder a ministry by doing that.

FSD: Was?

Stephen: Sure, was! How can I mimic an old life? God is bigger than that.

FSD: Interesting. So why not be the kind of Christian you feel called to be? And play in TOTM?

Stephen: Well, I am, but to call it Christianity . . . we go back to the point I made about how little a title is important. I am a believer, but I can only be that for me. I will go out, and I will (in the way I am saying) show the love--and I think you and I are on the same page, but to go out with a name tag . . . foolish. I’m putting a nail in my own spiritual coffin that way.

FSD: So do you have a problem with the term "Christian"? Or is it just the organized "Christian rock" animal that you want to distance TOTM from?

Stephen: Yeah, I’m sorry, I thought I made that clear earlier. I believe it doesn’t change what I believe, as much as how effective I am, in America. I mean, I know in China or some place, if you are a Christian they will kill you. So it is real in other parts of the world, but in America? Come on, everyone and their mother is a Christian. You pay the price of wearing a fish on your car, and you’re saved! Well, I want you to understand, it’s not so much as wanting to distance myself or TOTM. It’s more of wanting to get closer to loving the people who need to know this love.

FSD: That's an excellent point of clarification. Because there are a lot of people/artists/bands having similar discussions about this. So this is not an elitist argument, and I know from previous conversations that you are not about that.

Stephen: As much as I disagree with Christian music scenes, or churches, I certainly wouldn’t say most aren’t helpful to someone. Some are just downright messed up (godhatesfags.com for example), but I mean, it’s not my place to attack churches, but to revolutionize, or help revolutionize how they exist to the world, not just us. Sure, as much as I ask questions, I want to love God. I want to serve God. It’s not a question of getting out of this.

FSD: Yeah, but come on, godhatesfags.com can't even be considered Christianity. Of course, that's what they would say about us, hehe.

Stephen: But it is. It is to almost every nonbeliever. And it affects me and you! Ya know?

FSD: Right. That's why it's important for us to get this love message out there, and even decry that kind of nonsense. I'm with you on the revolutionizing point.

Stephen: Yes. And I’m glad.

FSD: I'm a youth pastor at my full-time job/ministry and my kids often carry so much baggage into their Christianity.

Stephen: Sure man. And by the way, I had no idea you were a youth pastor, that’s awesome.

FSD: Yeah, I've been at this church for almost a year now. I just do the distro on the side, really . . . as another aspect of ministry/fun/hobby/art/etc.

Stephen: Yeah, absolutely. But understand, and this is scriptural, God calls people into prophetic ministries--we have had a fair share of them . . . and as unworthy as any of us (me too) are to God, I wouldn’t short change myself and say God hasn’t called me into this, if He has given me this understanding. It also says in the Bible, that your own brothers and sisters will not understand, and support what you’re doing. So it really does make sense.

FSD: Yeah, parts of this conversation have reminded me of what some of the prophets went through--from the personal anguish and struggles, to being misunderstood, rejected, etc., it all fits. I actually have a thesis I'm working on that will attempt to link the artistic and the prophetic.

Stephen: Dude, i gotta read this thesis of yours when it is done. Will there be any way?

FSD: Yeah, eventually. It's actually for my M.Div. thesis that I never completed. I'll let you know when it ever gets finished. The entire idea was trying to incorporate discipleship and the arts, trying to lay out a model for doing so.

Stephen: Right. That’s good to hear man.

FSD: Hey, this conversation has been very interesting/stimulating. I keep thinking that perhaps there are people out there that need to read this. What if we adapted this into an interview/feature story for me to post on my site or somewhere? Would you be opposed to that? I just keep thinking we have something special here, that came naturally without being forced or even trying to create something that would be published. But I would not do that without your permission/input.

Stephen: Wow! That would be amazing. Yeah I think this conversation was really helpful, man. I got some clarity on a few things. I mean, I’m still really confused about a lot. But I mean talking with you over some of it has helped. And if you want to use this to help others, man, go for it!

FSD: Alright, tomorrow is a big day. Christy's [ed. note: my wife] doctor is inducing labor .

Stephen: Oh, wow!

FSD: So one way or another we will have a new boy by the weekend.

Stephen: Dude!

FSD: Yeah, crazy stuff.

Stephen: Best of luck! Haha wow.

FSD: Thanks so much!

Stephen: And as I have said before, my prayers are with you 2 . . . well, 3.

FSD: Actually, 4, hehe. We have a 15-month old girl, hehe.

Stephen: Yeah I was about to say that. I remember you telling me about her.

FSD: Yeah, she is awesome. Thanks for the conversation, I've enjoyed it immensely.

Stephen: Me too. Thanks for being honest with me too. Good luck, thanks again Loyd.

FSD: You too! Talk to you later.

Stephen: Peace.



If you have thoughts or comments about this interview that you would like to share, please do so at info@fullsweepdistro.com. Comments directed to Stephen will be sent to him privately.

thanks!
Loyd